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Superchurches vs local congregations
Have we had this topic before? If no- sorry for bringing it up but Paul's response to another topic set me thinking
Superchurches are springing up all over the country. Some broadcast on Christian TV so no names needed.
At least one of these churches used to rent a theatre and hold several services over a weekend. I don't know how many people visit the church during a weekend, but the numbers are considerable.
There's a well known Anglican church just across the border in Lincolnshire in a beautiful market town. The church has two services on a Sunday morning and another in the evening.The evening service tends to attract people from local villages who attend their local church in the morning but go to the big church in the evening. The church has a reputation for lively worship with a good band and good evangelical teaching.
People are free to attend any church they choose, just as they are free to shop where they like.
But, just as Tesco, Asda and the others have monopolised the retail sector and driven the corner shop and the high street into extinction, will these super churches drain the life out of the smaller churches, especially in the villages?
Are super churches good for the Christian presence in the UK, or will they turn out to be bad?
BTW- Paul's post was about no-one noticing or caring when he stopped going. Can we have a sense of belonging, community and responsibility when nobody knows your name?
Does it matter?
Are we consumers of religion?
Sorry loads of questions but it's a big topic.
As worship leaders we need to be thinking about where the church is going- and whether it's where we think we are leading them
Superchurches are springing up all over the country. Some broadcast on Christian TV so no names needed.
At least one of these churches used to rent a theatre and hold several services over a weekend. I don't know how many people visit the church during a weekend, but the numbers are considerable.
There's a well known Anglican church just across the border in Lincolnshire in a beautiful market town. The church has two services on a Sunday morning and another in the evening.The evening service tends to attract people from local villages who attend their local church in the morning but go to the big church in the evening. The church has a reputation for lively worship with a good band and good evangelical teaching.
People are free to attend any church they choose, just as they are free to shop where they like.
But, just as Tesco, Asda and the others have monopolised the retail sector and driven the corner shop and the high street into extinction, will these super churches drain the life out of the smaller churches, especially in the villages?
Are super churches good for the Christian presence in the UK, or will they turn out to be bad?
BTW- Paul's post was about no-one noticing or caring when he stopped going. Can we have a sense of belonging, community and responsibility when nobody knows your name?
Does it matter?
Are we consumers of religion?
Sorry loads of questions but it's a big topic.
As worship leaders we need to be thinking about where the church is going- and whether it's where we think we are leading them
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Read on -
Dave
You're in a posting mood this evening, I can see.
Personally, I'm a small church-kind-of-person (but not so small that no-one is attending) - I like the fellowship and the fact that people know each other and care about each other. We do go to the big New Wine Summer conference each year, which I suppose can be sort of the same thing as the "super-church" experience, or going along to that lively evening service - but, the bit I like best about New Wine is camping for a week with a group of friends from our church, not the great big worship times.
Oh, and I'd never get into the band in a big church..... :-)
But, I don't think there's anything wrong with super-churches, just so long as they have ways and means for getting people noticed, and encouraging people into small groups where they can get the close fellowship of other Christians. Our church has, in the last couple of years, been using a lot of this "Purpose-Driven" material from Rick Warren and co, and one thing they do seem to try to do, even though their church is massive, is get people into small groups. And "fellowship" is one of their five purposes (as is worship, so I guess they got that right too?).
Small churches can have their problems too, of course.......
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Permalink Reply by Paul Childs on -
I have a friend from America who came and lived over here for a few months about 2 years ago.
She had always attended a very large church (thousands of members) and it was her only experience of church.
She came to our church of about 200 (that's between all the various meetings and services we have in the week) and was blown away by the fact that our vicar not only recognised her in the street but that he remembered her name also.
She found it really difficult that people of all different age and social groups were interested in getting to know her. In her church all the students were bundled together and only mixed with each other.
When she moved back to the states she said that she'd never go to a large church again. Nothing to do with the teaching or spirituality of the place, she said, but that in our smaller church she felt, for the first time in her 20 years that she understood what it meant to be part of the family of Christ.
I think you are right Daniel. There's nothing wrong with the large churches - they just need to work harder at the pastoral side of things - making sure people are not being left out or ignored or feeling herded into a particular corner - than smaller one does. It must be hard for a pastor to know every name of a 2000 strong congregation, but if there were a pastoral team where each member is responsible for a more manageble number, say 100-200 folk, that could be overcome.
I remember discussing all age worship with someone on here a few months back who said that because the church was so big the children are kept seperate from the rest of the church until they are 12 or 13. I don't get on with segregating anyone from anyone when it comes to worshipping God.
There's very little more humbling than having a 7 year old lay hands on you and pray for you (in a serious way, not a "thank-you-God-for-butterflies" type kiddie prayer). Sometimes I think the kids have got it right and the adults with all their hang ups and prejudices ought to step back and take a look at them.
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Permalink Reply by Dave Clemo on -
Thanks for your post Paul
This phrase
"She had always attended a very large church (thousands of members) and it was her only experience of church."
puts me in mind of certain football fans who only attend games at Old Trafford or the Emirates stadium. Yes it's football. Yes it's top quality. But it's not the same as the Saturday morning pub team or supporting a non-league team where you travel to away games in the team coach.
There's a different level of belonging and of community. And a different experience of football.
To Dave-
New Wine, Soul Survivor and Spring Harvest are OK to visit once a year but could you, or would you want to worship in that environment week in and week out? Would it ultimately become impersonal?
reading your post again, are you saying that your church is a small church , but you are using the "Purpose- Driven" ideas that were first promoted in Rick Warren's large church? The meaning isn't as clear as it could be. Or I'm just thick
I agree that the best bit about attending these events is as part of a group. It seems that large events help small groups grow together.
Which is wierd
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Read on
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Hi Dave
Yes, even though we are a small church (of order 100), we used the "Purpose-Driven" ideas, which were originally promoted in a large church. But, I think most of the ideas in that material are basically applicable in a small church setting (they are based around these five purposes of Worship, Fellowship, Discipleship, Ministry and Mission - you can hardly disagree with those). It's not the only model for church available, but it is one that has helped us focus on what we are about.
I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to grow the church..... but it would certainly appear that there are organisational things you need to think about if yours becomes a large church, and I would think these might kick in quite soon after the 200 mark in terms of numbers.
"Large events help small groups grow together"..... well, with my experience of the New Wine conference, it's simply that it's the only time of year you get to spend a whole week with friends from church!
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Permalink Reply by Paul Kent on -
Awww. I'm very disappointed.
I read this thread thinking you were organising a fight..
rats!
(My moneys on the little congregation.. )
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Permalink Reply by Paul Childs on
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Yes - because we could sneak in, and infiltrate and they'd never notice we were there!
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Permalink Reply by G McK on -
I suppose when revival comes to the uk we might not have the option of little churches.
The church I attend has about 40 people and if that were to increase to 400 or 4000 then I don`t think I be leaving to find a smaller church. maybe holding on to my hand bag more carefully.
Not that you guys will have that problem !
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Permalink Reply by Mark Robertson on -
Hey,
For my first year and a bit of my time at uni, i've been attending a huge Church of England church in town, which is a favourite with the students. But after about 18 months, no one (apart from the other students who i met at CU) knew who I was. I've been introduced to the vicar 3 times and he still doesnt have a clue who I am. So since christmas I've been attending a smaller church of england church. Its a longer walk away, and the worship is a lot more tradition but nearly everyone knows who I am. You feel more part of a community rather than a face in the crowd.
I've heard speakers from some of these 'superchurches' complain that they are growing and need a new building to fit everyone in, and I ask myself 'why build a new building to house a bigger church? why not having more than one congregation? why don't you consider a church plant?'
Another thing i've noticed, in the Church of England, each church is expected pay a parish share. They give a certain amount of money away to sustain the church of england as a whole. Its like the congregation tithes, and then out of that money the church tithes to the church of england.
I've noticed that the bigger richer churches i've been to are very quick to refuse to pay their parish share. Whereas smaller ones. Althrough they are less money, seem to try really hard to pay it, and are even willing to help neighboaring churchs pay their share. It almost seems as if 'superchurches' forget they belong to a something bigger than what goes on within their building. They belong to a global church.
God Bless
Mark
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Permalink Reply by Paul Childs on
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I have a real problem with churches who refuse the parish share - where do the congregation think their clergy's wages come from among other things that they seem to take for granted?
Makes me mad.
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Permalink Reply by Julia Chantrell on -
It's not just that. Some people take the attitude that as long as they give enough money to cover their 'share' of their own church's expenditure, that's all that's needed.
It isn't.
Our diocese [like most of them] has a wide range of areas from out and out wealthy to poverty stricken. The vicar in the latter areas probably has the pontential for far more impact on the community - yet there's no way his / her congregation could afford to support the ministry fully. So the 'richer' churches are supposed to support the 'poorer' churches and ensure that everyone gets a fair chance at paid staff. I wonder how well that's actually explained to the congregations when it comes to giving??
What's that bit in one of St. Paul's letters where he's praising a poor church for giving far more that they could afford in order to support the poor in Jerusalem? [I feel an attack of a concordance coming on]
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Permalink Reply by Julia Chantrell on
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2 Corinthinas 8 - biblegateway.com is a wonderful resource!
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Permalink Reply by Dave Clemo on
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I have a theory born out by observation and experience that rich people stay rich by hanging on to their money.
How large does a church have to be before it stops seeing people as individuals and just regards them as pew fodder?
I know of many church leaders who visit various exotic parts of the world, ostensibly on church business. I'm not questioning their motives, but observing that they'd find it more difficult to fund if they were in a smaller church, or their church was paying the parish share, or its equivalent.
On a side issue. A church that I was involved with briefly decided to join one of the new denominiations (not Pioneer, but something like it). It was a small church with about 20 adults and they were renting a community hall each week for their meetings. One of the conditions of joining this church group was that they would tithe (give 10%) of their weekly offering to the larger church in return for pastoral oversight.
Aside from the fact that the mother church was about 100 miles away and the rank and file had no obvious relationship with the other church (The leader of the small church went to events at the large church from time to time), I struggled to find any reason why the small church should join the larger one. As far as I could see, it was all one way. The small church paid 10% to the larger church in return for a visit to take a Sunday service every couple of months. Most importantly, I failed to see how this arrangement made any difference to the local community. If anything it turned the small church away from the locals and made the large church the focus. It didn't line up with anything I read in the New Testament
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