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What's The Most Controversial Thing You Believe?
I'd be interested to hear the most controversial thing that you believe in your Christian walk?
Is there something that you believe but you never seem to find another Christian (or many) who agrees with you?
I thought this would be a good way of sharing these things that we often end up keeping to ourself as it's easier than getting into an argument/disagreement.
So share away... :-)
Is there something that you believe but you never seem to find another Christian (or many) who agrees with you?
I thought this would be a good way of sharing these things that we often end up keeping to ourself as it's easier than getting into an argument/disagreement.
So share away... :-)
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Julie Silversides on -
I know and believe everything you're saying, Eric. I was a vicar's wife for seven years (just to clarify, I've been married for 30 years, but Mark is no longer a vicar - he felt it wasn't for him). Anyway, we've had experience in dealing with people involved in the occult, so I'm not talking from a position of ignorance, we've experienced what can happen to people first hand. It's not something I would ever go near!
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Read on -
Can't think how you came up with this topic, Phil!
OK, here goes..... probably the most controversial thing I believe is NT Wright's version of what Paul meant by "Justification by faith". Now, this is controversial, 'cos he thinks that Luther didn't get it entirely right. There's some brief statements of it here and here - for more detail I guess you have to read one of his books on Paul....... but briefly he says "Justification is the declaration of God that someone is (a) in the right, that their sins are forgiven, and (b) a true member of the covenant family, the people belonging to Abraham. That is how the word works in Paul's writings. It doesn't describe how people get in to God's forgiven family; it declares that they are in". That is, he thinks of faith as a badge of family membership, not some magical way the sins are wiped clean. Also, he thinks Paul says final judgement is still according to works - a life well lived. "Just-as-if-I'd never sinned" doesn't come close....
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Permalink Reply by amanda williams on -
I think the most controversial thing I believe is that most christians aren't christians at all. I struggle between the 'narrow is the way and few there are that find it' and the fact that Jesus is gathering a multitude that no man can number.
I worry that we've so cheapened grace, that we are deceiving many who think that they are 'in', but are not at all because they think that its all about them.
Whereas, in reality, its all about HIM.
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Permalink Reply by Bill Phillips on -
Ok, I have a great one that has caused me a lot of grief, I studied scripture for hours every day for the first 7 years of my walk, and I studied greek and hebrew and even had an oppurtunity to study and listen to some hebrew teachers.
I now I triy to listen to teacher and preachers about subjects that are widly believed in the universal church, I find some in inconsistencies. and one of them is how they have put together and mingle scriptuers together to come up with this thing called the secret rapture of the church. The idea started in 1830 by a jesuit priest who was bringing in a theory and insead of reseaching it out to find it was wrong, people just kept adding there ideas to it for the excitment that it brings.
You can search it out yourself at http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/the_raptur...
Well thats about it God Bless you all
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Permalink Reply by patrick wallace on -
if hitler spent 20 minutes with Jesus befor he died he would have as much right to heaven as you or i
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Permalink Reply by Martin Cliffe on -
I cannot find any scriptural justification for the personification of the Holy Spirit (unless you take into account the bits that were added later by the early church to enforce their concept of the Trinity). I believe sincerely that the Spirit exists as a part of God, but having read a decent amount of theological history and spent considerable time in prayer and discussion with others, I see the Trinitarian concept as being something the early church created as an oversimplification of what God really is. If the Spirit is a person, it is less than complete God, and that doesn't work for me.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Read on
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Yes, the "Trinity" has always been a tough one! There's a nice chapter in NT Wright's "Paul: Fresh Perspectives" on how Paul began to rethink his idea of "the One" God in the light of Jesus and the Spirit, and on how in much of Paul's writing Jesus or the Spirit (or both) takes the place where God would have been in an equivalent Old Testament version of the story. The trouble is, for the most part we only have the beginnings of such thought patterns in the New Testament, so you have to decide whether such reading between the lines is good enough for you!
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Permalink Reply by Ben Atkins on -
Yeah I've had that in my mind for quite a while too! I guess ultimately though its not really something I need to make my mind up on... I believe that God's Spirit is exactly that - God's Spirit. Which God uses to work in us and through us. And you know, God does work through me and in me, even though I haven't really made up my mind about the 'trinity' concept. I believe that all Scripture is God breathed and inspired (I even used a capital 'S' for 'Scripture!! lol), I just can't seem to find any scriptural justification for the personification of God's Spirit as this third part of the trinity, 'Holy Spirit'. I don't have any issues referring to God's Spirit as the Holy Spirit. In fact, I call God's Spirit by the name of the Holy Spirit more often than not. It doesn't get in the way of my relationship with God. And no, I'm not a 'liberal', in case you're thinking that! :) I just think we have to look at the scriptures on this one... I find that much of the evidence for the trinity is reading between the lines and making assumptions. My issue isn't with the Holy Spirit, or anything about God, its with the concept of the Trinity.
But maybe thats just because I don't understand it....
It just seems to me that it seems inevitable that mankind, over time, have tried to put the God who is above and beyond all understanding into a box, and they've named it the trinity!
You know, if I am being ignorant then I honestly am sorry - I'm happy to be proved wrong and stuff, I'm not intending to sound arrogant, so sorry if its come accross that way. If God said that he was three in one and one in three then that's fine by me, I'd accept that and I'd still want to love and worship him in all that i do!
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Permalink Reply by Daniel Read on
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OK, here goes - some Trinitarian bits of the Bible as taken from the NT Wright book above and also from the last chapter of Nicky Gumbel's "Searching Issues".
Trinitarian formulae:
Baptism: Matthew 28:19
'The Grace': 2 Corinthians 14:14
On gifts and unity: 1 Corinthians 12: 4-6 (note the Spirit / Lord / God formula)
On worship: Ephesians 5:18-20
On Salvation: 2 Thessalonians 2: 13-14
On our election: 1 Peter 1: 1-2
Other development of Paul's thinking - specifically places where the Spirit plays a role
Galatians 4:1-7 (God, Son, Spirit all have a role)
Romans 8 (this whole chapter is essentially a retelling of the Exodus story - "God's people, set free from slavery, must not think of going back to it, but must rely on the presence and leading of God as they go on to their inheritance" says Wright. In the original Exodus story, they had the presence of God - "Shekinah". In the Romans retelling of the story, the Spirit takes the place of the Shekinah).
Ephesians 1:3-14: again, note that God, Christ, Spirit all have a role.
Is this an argument for "the personification of the Holy Spirit"? - I don't know, perhaps it depends what you understand as "personification". Just thought it might help to gather it all into one place - though I don't think the above is exhaustive :-)
Oh - and I once heard someone explaining the "Throne + Lamb" setting of Revelation on Trinitarian terms - I think you have to read the "Seven spirits" , or "Seven lampstands" as denoting the Spirit. Make of that what you will!
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Permalink Reply by Ben Atkins on
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It seems I've just been very well educated! Thanks guys! Yeah, I think I may have no explained myself very well - I didn't really have an issue with the personification of the Holy Spirit as such, more of an issue with the Trinity. But your verses and stuff have helped that a fair bit. So yeah, Thanks!
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Permalink Reply by Julia Chantrell on -
John 14:15 - 17;
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."
I don't think Jesus would be referring to the Spirit as 'him' if it was inanimate.
But in all fairness - I don't we stand a snowball's chance of understanding this one. I admit I hate things I can't puzzle out, but when it comes to anything about the person[s] of God I'm so far out of my league I'm coming back.
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Permalink Reply by Phil Williams on -
I was just about to post this verse - but I refreshed the page and you had already posted it! Like you say I think it's very clear that the Holy Spirit is a 'he' and therefore a person...
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